Purgatory

May 29, 2014 by  
Filed under Dialogues

 

Hello guys, as a modern apologist? how can we defend about the doctrine on purgatory? hope you can help me with this topic thanks God Bless

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  • James P Dimichino likes this.
  • New Apologetics The necessity of purgatory is easily explainable when we come to see how much resistance we have to believing and accepting the fullness of what Christ has done for us. Our experience of purgatory is essentially our coming to be capacitated to simply *receive* (without resistance) the completeness of the gift of our redemption. This concept is almost universally misunderstood.

    In the coming to be able to receive what Christ has done for us, we must be divested of all hope of earning our salvation for ourselves, or somehow making ourselves right before God. This process usually takes a very long time, and few complete it on earth.
  • David Lupo How do you know few complete it on earth? Is not God the judge of that? I think what matters is one’s intention, and progress in the eyes of God, not human eyes. It is our insight about people that is lacking. We should not invent purgatory because our insight is faulty. Jesus never said a word about it. Paul believes that after death comes the judgement.
  • Dean Victor Lanestosa Montalvo hmmmm… @david lupo wow, purgatory is not a invention sorry to say.. we have a biblical basis of purgatory
  • Zoraida Clark where in the Bible is purgatory mentioned? not
  • New Apologetics David Lupo Saint John of the Cross (Doctor of the Church) in treating the subject of our purgation, discusses this. The process can take very many years, and it is far too painful for most to persevere through (or even begin) in this life. It is rare to find a person well into the second “dark night”, and it is even rarer (once in a lifetime) to find a person in the transforming union, which is the state of those who (by the grace of God) have completed their purgatory on earth.
  • Dean Victor Lanestosa Montalvo @zoeyde Clark yes, indeed in the bible the purgatory isn’t mentioned but the bible states “cleansing” if you know in our doctrines there are two degrees of sins mortal sins and venial..

    mortal sins are those sins we commited against God’s will that makes us awayn to God 
    Venial sins are those sins we commited against God’s will that is less serious offense

    God is loving God he wants us to be save through his Son Jesus Christ … purgatory isn’t a place it is a state of cleansing of our venial sins

    Now tell me if you are that good please tell me if you can go directly to heavean?? not Now tell me if you are that bad please tell me if you go directly to hell? it think not, there is something in between.
  • Abet Layug The term purgatory is not written in the Bible but the essence of the term is in the Bible. In Rev. 21:27 stating that Nothing impure will ever enter it that means all of us must be pure in order to enter in the kingdom…We are all sinners and impure so no one can be saved?… The doctrine of the Church stating that if man after death has venial sins (not grave sin) then he is impure and not worthy, but the justice and infinite mercy of God manifested in intermediate state of purification in order man to be pure and worthy. Even the reformists believed in that intermediate state. In Mat 12:37 stating that “but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” The world to come referring to what? Next Life? If so, there are sins not to be forgiven in the world to come and also from the context of the text implying that there are sins to be forgiven in the world to come. That’s why in deuterocanonical book, 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 stating that It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. In Mat 5:26 stating that Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. And in 1 Cor. 3:13-15 stating that their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss. BUT YET WILL BE SAVED—even though only as one escaping through the flames. Now if you can give me single verse in the scriptures saying in verbatim that if it is not in the Bible or if is not written in the Bible , then it is not true, show it to me.
  • Dean Victor Lanestosa Montalvo ^ I agree  in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46
  • Roy Cauthern Go here… We owe God and until our debt is paid in full we still owe, hence purgatory exists for us to fulfill our debt to God…
  • Billie Faye King Christ paid it all for us
  • Dean Victor Lanestosa Montalvo yes Christ paid it all for us, but are we worthy of that?
  • Paul Cameron no, we are not worthy that is why Jesus was the ransom for those that truly believe in Him. Rom 3, all have sinned and fall short.
  • Paul Cameron there is no purgatorey..Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD . therefore,if there were a purging place, Jesus is there also. our sanctification is done here on earth while we are alive!
  • Dean Victor Lanestosa Montalvo OK  lets stop this stuff.. we will end it in a debate manner.. for me, if there is a purgatory or not, we are saved by JESUS CHRIST!  I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR RELIGION BUT IT MATTERS MOST THAT LOVES US
  • New Apologetics Paul Cameron You wrote: there is no purgatorey..Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD . therefore,if there were a purging place, Jesus is there also. our sanctification is done here on earth while we are alive!

    We reply: There is a misunderstanding here. Our purgation is not something other than the act of being in the presence of the Lord. We are purged of our disordered attachments only by being with/in him. Though he is with us and in us, we are not fully with him while we continue in our disordered attachments. Though he has paid the price to bring us the fullness of salvation, we cannot receive the gift he intends to give because we are busy living a false identity and believing something less than the whole truth of what he has done for us.
  • New Apologetics Roy Cauthern We censored the link you posted because the site, though supposedly “Catholic” is directly teaching things contrary to the official teaching of the Church.

    For example, on the topic of purgatory, it (wrongly) says: 

    “Why a need for purgation after one’s sin has already been forgiven? The premier example from the Bible comes from David, in the book of 2 Samuel 12:13-14:

    “David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

    Here we see God punishing David by taking the life of his son, even after God forgave David for killing Bathsheeba’s husband, Uriah the Hittite, by putting him on the battlefront (So David could take Bathsheeba for his wife). This verse also tells us that our children can suffer mightily, even death, because of our own sins.”

    However, (contra the deeply misleading link you cited) temporal punishment for sin is not something inflicted by God from without. Rather, it is a natural consequence of the disorder caused by sin. The limited theology of the Old Testament largely does not recognize the role of secondary causes and attributes everything to God. But the Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly states the following:

    “These two punishments [eternal and temporal] must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1472

    Necessarily, this understanding would also apply to the issue of chastisement:

    Part of the Fatima message:

    “When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.”

    Church interpretation of that statement:

    “And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”

    Tarcisio Bertone, SDB
    Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli
    Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
  • Nick Owen Maybe purgatory is a made up concept to keep people living in fear..?
  • Gregory Douglas Reichert Purgatory is a place of sanctification. Why would you fear a place that if you know you are there, you are eventually gonna be in Heaven?
  • Helen Hawkins Nick, I often think of Purgatory as intense psychological therapy that you can’t run away from. It is not so much a place but state of being where you come face to face with yourself and recognize that you have alot of baggage to clean up before entering heaven. Sort of like taking a bath before going to a party.
  • Tushinka Tan No such thing as Purgatory.
  • Paul Cameron actually our sanctification begins immediately after we are justified. we are justified by belief in Jesus as personal Lord and saviour.we are then glorified upon our demise from this physical body(death).
  • Paul Cameron the best way to defend purgatory is for someone to show you all the places it is it is in scripture.
  • Omar Henriquez “Paul Cameron there is no purgatorey..Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD . therefore,if there were a purging place, Jesus is there also. our sanctification is done here on earth while we are alive!”

    You skipped 1 Cor 3 and the rest of verses Albert Layug mentioned.
  • Dean Victor Lanestosa Montalvo now.. can we focus on the part of St. Nicholas of Tolentino for he is the patron Saint of the Poor souls in the purgatory
  • Paul Cameron what verses that say we are not made pure thru faith in Jesus?
  • Paul Cameron where did this word purgatory come from?where is it in scripture?
  • New Apologetics Roy Cauthern You wrote: “Go here… We owe God and until our debt is paid in full we still owe, hence purgatory exists for us to fulfill our debt to God…”

    We reply: The only debt we owe God is to trust him. When we trust him, he is able to accomplish everything in us, and there is no purgatory for us.
  • Omar Henriquez This one:

    Romans 6:22 KJV

    But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
  • New Apologetics Paul Cameron Tushinka Tan Nick Owen Zoeyde Clark 

    Saint Paul, addressing those who have already given their lives to Christ, writes: “to all the holy ones in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and ministers… because of your partnership for the gospel from the first day until now. …you who are all partners with me in grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.” (Phil 1:1-5)

    And the next sentence is the *only* scripture needed to prove the biblical basis for purgatory:

    “I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work in you will continue to complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Phil 1:6)

    Either God does bring to completion the work he has begun in us or not. If he does not, then the scripture is false and we are all deceived. If he does, then he is faithful to continue to complete it even if we die before it is accomplished. 

    But what is this work he is completing in us? Paul continues:

    “And this is my prayer: that your love may increase ever more and more in knowledge and every kind of perception, to discern what is of value, so that you may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ for the glory and praise of God.” (Phil 1:9-11)

    If we are not perfected in love and in discernment of what is of true value (rather than to lay hold to disordered attachments), we cannot live the life of heaven though our sins are forgiven. This act of bringing us to perfection is God’s work, and he promises to complete it.

    Going further, and coming to the very core of the issue, the work of God in us can be understood most essentially as the following:

    “So they said to him, ‘What can we do to accomplish the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.'” (John 6: 28-29)

    And what is this belief? It is not mere intellectual assent. Rather, it is to have, through the work of the Holy Spirit, a full trust in God’s ability and willingness to make us “holy and blameless,” in Christ and to have *no* trust in our own ability to make ourselves right before God.

    On the topic of purgatory, Saint Therese of Lisieux (Doctor of the Church) writes:

    “You are not sufficiently trusting, you fear God too much. I assure you that this grieves Him. Do not be afraid of going to purgatory because of its pain, but rather long not to go there because this pleases God who imposes this expiation so regretfully. From the moment that you try to please Him in all things, if you have the unshakable confidence that He will purify you at every instant in His love and will leave in you no trace of sin, be very sure that you will not go to purgatory.”

    We only go to purgatory if we have not fully trusted God’s power to take away our sins and transform us in his love. If only we believe him, then we don’t have to go.

    But this power to trust God and receive the good news of the Gospel is not ours, but is the work of God within us:

    Council of Trent – CANON III.- “If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.”

    Coming to believe by *grace* that our sins are forever gone is the work of God within us which he brings to completion. Our task is simply to let him do it. But what about good works? Peter writes:

    “For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:5-8)

    It seems that works are rather important. But then Peter continues:

    “Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.” (2 Peter 1: 9)

    So, according to Saint Peter, if we lack these good works we have *forgotten* that our sins are forgiven: “Anyone who lacks them is… forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.”

    But there is a very profound implication here: A logical equivalent of the statement above (its contrapositive) is that “If we *remember* (i.e. believe) that our past sins are cleansed, then we will *not* lack these good works.”

    Once we truly come to “believe in the one He sent”, scripture promises that we will be filled with love and every manner of heroic virtue. And it is God doing these things within us, not our own labor. All we have to do is trust him. He draws us into this trust, and we choose to allow him to do so or not.

    Nobody who “believes in the one He sent” will have to go to purgatory.
  • Ciel Diaz to be absent from the body is to be present in the lord. (2cor5:8) the passage don’t say that to be absent from the body is the same thing as being with the lord. if they did, they’d refute not only purgatory, but also hell. what Paul is saying is that…See More
  • Paul Cameron on the cross, didnt Jesus say,today u will be with me in paradise?
  • New Apologetics Paul Cameron You wrote: “on the cross, didnt Jesus say,today u will be with me in paradise?”

    We reply: And so he was. All we have to do is trust him, and he can purify us in an instant. 

    “In Thy sight time is nothing, one day is as a thousand years (Cf. Psalms 89:4). Thou canst in an instant prepare me to appear before Thee” St. Thérèse of Lisieux
  • Ciel Diaz Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven). 
    Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 – here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God. 
    Baruch 3:4 – Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory. 
    Zech. 9:11 – God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory. 
    2 Macc. 12:43-45 – the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible. 



    (Catholic Q&A)
  • John Christopher Ilano Im not that educated catholic teen but i agree w/ New Apologetics…. and btw we dont need so much of a debate, maybe an educated xplanation, but we need to understand, respect, open our minds a bit, as long as we trust HIM, and i quote ” HE can purify us in an instant”
  • John Christopher Ilano and btw I love this page, it’ll help me a lot to defend and understand my faith
  • Paul Cameron Paul Cameron Romans 10:9 uses the word “saved”..what does the word mean? is it different in definition depending on the verse it is used in?like in Acts 4:12
    what does saved mean???
    5 hours ago · Like..
  • Scott Maddox Really you can’t defend it because you have no empirical evidence of purgatory.
  • New Apologetics Scott Maddox You assume that empirical evidence is the only means of knowledge. Apart from empirical evidence, there is also knowledge through valid deductive inference. We assert that purgatory can be shown to exist from such an inference.